Legend of Zelda Discussion

I've decided to go ahead and open this topic because of our recent debate over the Legend of Zelda while talking about Shantae in another thread.

I'll go ahead and get off my chest how I basically felt about the entries in the series, but I've never played Phantom Hourglass or Spirit Tracks. I'd also never finished either Oracle games, but did play them.

The original Legend of Zelda kicked off an amazing series, and to me is the best NES game I've played, although I prefer A Link to the Past as far as the birds' eye view entries go.

Zelda II was hard as ****! That is all.

A Link to the Past to me is definitely the Zelda game with the strongest exploration in the series. The game had so many secret items you weren't required to get as well as secret areas to find. It's also one of the few games that didn't require you to go from dungeon to dungeon in a certain order, at least after entering the Dark World.

Ocarina of Time sits strongly with me; it was my first Zelda game. The jump from Young to Adult Link is a very cool feature that's still unique to this game. This game also still had an expansive set of things to do and secrets to find that the later games start to lack. This is also the Zelda game with my favorite final battle. The first battle against Ganondorf may basically be tennis, but that laugh of his and his voice work in general are great. The second battle is even better to me, with several options of defeating Ganon, and Zelda's screams when you get hit really add the substance a final battle should have.

Majora's Mask was also great, with probably even more side quests than Ocarina of Time or A Link to the Past, and is probably the darkest and strangest Zelda to be released, which is a good thing in my book. The abilites of all the different masks in the game also probably make this the game with the most gameplay options of any Zelda game to date. I'll also add that I'd love to see Fierce Diety Link as a costume in the new Smash Bros.

I'm thinking Wind Waker has the largest world, land and all, of the Zelda games. Also, while many found traversing the ocean to be annoying, I actually enjoyed going around bombing sharks and pirates while heading to my destination. The story in this game is also one of the better in the series to me, and also unlike most people I actually liked the graphics as well. I will say though that because of the large ocean the scavenger hunt type quests were annoying as ****. Finding the **** Triforce pieces... finding those **** pieces! Also, despite the large world, there still weren't as many secrets as A Link to the Past or even Ocarina/Majora. Spanning the entire world basically won you a bunch of Rupees, and nothing to spend them on. Even so, it's still one of my favorites.

Minish Cap was a great game as well. The way a few of the bosses are just normal enemies you fight while you're tiny was very creative and I loved it. Also, finding all the new sword abilities you could learn was also a huge plus (even though the jump attack was useless.) The Kinstones were an interesting idea, but didn't really do much for me. I also liked going back to being able to put any item in either hand and use them like that, meaning you could use a boomerang and a shield if you wanted. Speaking of which Minish Cap has my favorite version of the boomerang after it's upgraded, one you can control.

Twilight Princess is around my favorite. It's hard to say. What helps is that Midna is definitely my favorite character in the Zelda series, and is one of the few characters in the entire series with actual character development. I also didn't mind the wolf form, although I do have to say the scavenger hunts to get rid of the twilight kind of sucked. I hate scavenger hunting in general though. The game also had some interesting new items, and Epona is always a plus to me. Also finding the sword abilities in Twilight Princess are a large plus, I wish more games would do this (and I was disappointed that you never get ANYTHING new for the wolf form.) The story is up there to me as well. Compared to most of the other games, Link has a larger part in the world around him, instead of going around talking to this guy and going to a dungeon, then moving on. Now there's the major minus of the game: the difficulty. Everything sucks in this game. Most enemies are slow, and despite this they still don't hit crap for damage (Ganondorf hits for half a heart...) My solution is playing the whole game with three hearts, which finally makes the **** game at least how it should be in combat difficulty.

Skyward Sword has the best gameplay to me; the Wii Motion Plus works so much better than I thought it would when watching the demo videos, and the best part is you actually have to make use of it. Enemies will block in certain ways and they'll usually punish you if you just try randomly swinging. This is also one of the few games I've played where Zelda herself actually has a large part. In most games Link barely sees to her throughout the course of the entire game. The game's also got interesting characters, and Fi sat well with me, even though she doesn't have much character like Midna (and her dances are repeated too many times in the game to me.) One thing I really like about Fi is how she can examine not just enemies, but all characters. Ghirahim (needs to be in next Smash) is also my second favorite Zelda villain, behind the Ocarina version of Ganondorf. The fact you have a kind of recurring rivalry with him is a large plus to me. The Imprisoned, though, is also fought as many times as Ghirahim, and he's my least favorite Zelda boss. The only plus in that battle is that you team up with the epic Groose. That brings up another plus in this game to me: you actually fight some bosses outside of dungeons, which really adds a new flavor to the game. I hope to see this in more Zelda games.

Well, as you can all see, to me every game in the Zelda series has had its own pluses to me, and it's really hard for me to pick a favorite. They're all just so good, I can't name a single one I actually didn't like (CDi doesn't count, even though I've never played it anyway.)

You didn't miss out on much from Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks. My little cousin kept bugging me to help him constantly with both of them because of how annoying and mind-numbing the puzzles are. I had to resort to a guide many times because there's only one way to draw shamefully simple shapes on certain doors successfully; most poorly implemented gimmick ever. The touch screen controls were neat, but that's all I enjoyed in it, and outside of that I was pissed beyond words that the DS never got a serious Zelda release, but you can probably blame the rampant piracy of commerical games on the DS for killing the chances of that off; STUPID CHINESE FLASH CARD MAKERS, Y U NO STICK TO PURE HOMEBREW SUPPORT ONLY. >:(

You really should try to finish the Oracle games if you can. Their puzzles are tough, but totally worth it, and if you beat both games, you can get the "final", true ending too! I really would love to replay them myself, but their visuals just haven't aged very well compared to A Link to the Past on the SNES. (Loved that game to pieces!) I really wish they would remake both games or at least put them on the 3DS eShop. If the pure troll that is Link's Awakening (I wanted to smash my Gameboy Pocket trying to beat that game, ugh! Figuring out where to go next was the biggest pain ever.) can get on there, why not the Oracle prequels too? I hope the fact that Capcom developed them doesn't complicate publishing it on the eShop.

I can relate with the Triforce shards on Wind Waker. That's when I actually gave up on the game and dumped my copy on a cousin. xD I collected two pieces and that's all my limited patience for WW's constant trolling would allow, and paying out the can for map translations from Tingle was the last nail in the coffin for me. I just could not stand it, and so glad none of the other games have repeated that nonsense.

I've actually finished Zelda II recently, and boy that wasn't easy! Cruelest game in the series if you ask me, but still easier to beat than its predecessor on new game plus. ;_;

On most of my playthroughs of Twlight Princess, I've actually skipped heart containers and stuck with the three hearts myself; the game is easily my favorite out of the whole series, but wow the enemies just don't hurt enough to justify collecting heart pieces. xD

I will just leave this here: :/

Paragon-Yoshi wrote:Alright, I have already seen some discussions about whether Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword is the better game.
I thought I might as well give it a place here.

Surprisingly, many people seem to still favour Twilight Princess over Skyward Sword.
Their reasons:

- Twilight Princess had the better plot and setting.
- Twilight Princess had Ganondorf.
- Twilight Princess had the better game-mechanics. (!!!)
- Skyward Sword lacked a large overworld to explore.
- Skyward Sword looked way too cartoony for a real Zelda-game.
There are a few more, but I think I've got the gist of it.


Personally, I cannot comprehend this. I just don't get how Twilight Princess is the better game.
Okay, they are right about Twilight Princess having a large overworld, offering much more exploration than Skyward Sword.
But I think Skyward Sword still offered a lot of secrets and it worked well overall.

Otherwise though, I don't get why Twilight Princess is receiving so much praise.
Here are my reasons:
- The plot was rather messy.
While the plot was overall a well constructed, it did have some parts that did not make much sense.
But I will adress the worst offenders down below...

- They ruined Zant at the last second!
You know, when I first was introduced to Zant in the game, I really thought "Wow. What a cool villain!"
The way he was introduced to me, was a villain who seeks to turn all of Hyrule to a realm of twilight and fear.
And as the plot developed, I have come to the following conclusion:
Zant is an extraordinary member of the Dark Tribe, that has been banished into the Twilight Realm.
He has developed powers so great that it allowed him and his followers to break out of the Realm and return to Hyrule.
And then he saught revenge on the "Light Dwellers", who banished his tribe and thus made them live a living ****.
It was perfect!

But when Ganondorf was brought into the plot, his role has suddenly grown so small. Which I already found bad.
But it wasn't nearly as offending, as when I finally faced him in the Palace of Twilight.
Nintendo decided to completely throw everything, that has been built before, out of the window.
Suddenly he started acting like a generic, idiotic cartoon-villain. All those stupid tantrum-like jumps and noises he makes...
And now he suddenly no longer acts out of revenge, but out of pure jealously that he hasn't been chosen as the king.
Seriously, Nintendo... ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?!?
HOW CAN YOU BREAK A CHARACTER LIKE THAT?!?!?

Oh, and speaking of Ganondorf...


- Ganondorf made no sense here!
Seriously, I still think Ganondorf SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN USED here!
Given that this game is supposed to take place between Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker, it seriously would've been better.
Since it wouldn't have broken anything then.

But even so, the way he was implemented in the plot was rather messy.
In Ocarina of Time, he was sealed away at the end.
And in Wind Waker, he has been properly introduced, by briefly re-telling the events of OoT and mentioning that he somehow broke out of the seal.

In Twilight Princess however, he was introduced as if the events of OoT never happened and was always free before the events with the sages and stuff.
And given that he DIES at the end, it makes even less sense and kinda breaks the plot that has been established with Wind Waker.

I think Zant should've been the main villain and Ganondorf should've stayed out of this game.
I know that he is the main recurring villain of the Zelda-games. But that doesn't mean that he must be used in every Zelda-game.
In fact, it actually does look like Nintendo originally intended to use Zant only as villain, but decided to SHOEHORN Ganondorf into it at the last second.
Which is what broke him to an extent, if you ask me.


And lastly there is Wolf Link and the Tear Hunts.
Simply put, I HATED BOTH.
Especially the Tear Hunts were so annoying... Ugh
Skyward Sword handled them much better...


As for the rest of the arguments. Feel free to adress them on your own, because I don't feel like it... :/


Skyward Sword is clearly superior.
It had a much better plot. Better characters, the better villains, a stellar Gameplay.
Heck, Skyward Sword blows Twilight Princess out of the water in nearly every aspect.

The only remaining problem are the FINAL BATTLES!!!
Which is where both messed up IMO.
Simply put, those sword-battles are really lame and disappointing.
What happened to the good old days where the final bosses throw barrages of energy blasts at you, teleport around like crazy and try to cheap-shot you at any given opportunity?
Those are the kind of Final Bosses I like. Since it gives me the impression that I am really fighting a really powerful adversary, who uses everything he has to dispose of me.
The last battles in both TP and SS however, give me the impression like they are not even trying.
Which is what I find really stupid. :/

Here the link to the original: CLICK

I dunno if they really ruined Zant if you asked me. As a character, he seemed pretty unstable in the first place, mostly when things weren't going his way; (I mean did you see the petty behavior he displayed after realizing he wasn't next in line for the throne?) otherwise he was pretty well composed and collected, but who wouldn't be while plans were executing smoothly? And when things started hitting the fan, he crumbled instead of maintaining his composer, which openly displays a lot of character faults I've never seen in the series thus far.

Once Link and Midna proved to be a team he shouldn't have so poorly underestimated, Zant slowly devolved back into the desperate, corrupt, power hungry psychopath he was at the start when he reduced Midna to an imp. (Which Ganondorf took full advantage of in his offer to Zant.) Yes, he initially comes off as a real threat, but his past would tell you anything but; I didn't find his transition to madman jarring because there was evidence that he had always been crazy before. It's not like the controversial Mass Effect 3 ending where a suddenly important character was dropped almost unnaturally into the storyline, right at the freaking end of it all, and it just didn't work. (Even with the Extended Cut tacked on, Vent Boy still doesn't belong in the picture.) If Zant had never been a nutcase, I would agree wholeheartedly that it was a horrible way for them to kill off an interesting character, heck, maybe even the only decent villain in the series besides Ganondorf. (Pretty boys like Vahti make me laugh; I can hardly take them seriously at all.)

And I'll admit, they may have went pretty far with the completely psychotic boss fight against Zant, but holy crap I was too busy laughing at just how insane he was acting to care at first! I didn't think the devs could have topped themselves with a moon-walking, chicken-legged Majora's Mask, but they did, and bested its insanity spectacularly. Whoever VA'd for Zant deserves an award for producing so many crazy noises!

Sorry about how you feel with Ganondorf, but I think he had some right to be in Twilight Princess, and highly doubt the story would have been half as engaging without him. Can you seriously imagine the developers coming up with a better plot twist for the first truly modern Zelda, with an engaging, deep storyline without their flagship, iconic bad guy? (It would have been more predictable than OoT if Zant remained the villian, IMO.) I mean, jeez, how was Ganondorf's failed execution by the Sages not epic? It was only inevitable that some new guys would become the Sages, not know who exactly Ganondorf was, and make the worst mistake in the world; try to execute him! To me, Twilight Princess was probably a more appropriate sequel to the Ocarina of Time than the Wind Waker was, not that either game is connected to each other in any way. TP and WW share the same engine, but that's about it.

So, what I'm trying to gather at this point is whether you were tired of Ganondorf's consistent appearance in the Zelda series, or did the "SURPRISE ZANT WAS A BABBLING IDIOT ALL ALONG MWAHAHAHAH ALL HAIL GANONDORF." reveal leave you gravely disappointed? The King of the Gurridos may never be challenged by another equal, but who else is holding the Triforce of Power? Zant didn't have any real power without him, and he would have stayed a whiny loon without Ganon's infinite resources. Until somebody beats the green out of his skin for that Triforce of Power and succeed, (Or even worse, a new villain rises up to the plate and successfully claims all three triforce pieces in the sacred realm!) it could be some time before anyone knocks Ganondorf off his high horse and puts Link in a real bind. It's happened to Bowser in the Mario games many times already, why not the King of Shadows too at this point? I guess they don't want to make him look weak.

Now for as to why anyone would compare SS to TP, that's just crazy talk. No two Zelda games are alike enough to fairly compare each other to, and most of them are spread out across very different platforms. (Fan boys will be fan boys, I guess.) The true continuity was never made known officially either, and still hasn't, so pinning each title into any form of timeline is a pointless waste of time. Only the producers or directors are privileged with knowing the full story and all its associated lore, (According to a Game Informer interview I came across once.) and for as long as Nintendo keeps churning out more Zelda games, that air of mystery and wonder is going to stay there.

SS has its own merits from what I've seen here and there, and I know TP does too from playing it all the way through several times myself. There's a Zelda experience for everybody, really, and mine's TP. It was the one AAA 6th gen title I waited impatiently for since the generic Gamecube Zelda tech demo was spreading around in the year 2000, and I still remember how amazing it was to finally see that title screen in Christmas of 2006. That game in its case feels like having a chunk of freaking gold on my shelf, not a useless paperweight, and I'm sure other fans feel the very same way about other Zelda games.

Okay then, here we go again... -_-


Zant
Did you even read what I've written or just skim over it?

(I mean did you see the petty behavior he displayed after realizing he wasn't next in line for the throne?)

THAT IS THE SCENE I WAS REFERRING TO!
That is the particular scene where his personality suddenly shifted to something completely different.

My point is that his personality in the Palace of Twilight CONTRADICTS with the personality he has shown for the whole game before.
And IT MAKES NO SENSE!
True, villains tend to act edgey when things don't go their way.
But Nintendo has blown it out of proportion here.


As for Ganondorf:


I can only refer to the link that I posted above. Click it and take a look at the discussion.
Let me post a few quotes of it:

When it comes to Ganondorf, he's a lot like Dr. Willy or Sigma. They're always thrown in at the last second for no other reason than "This will make a great plot twist". Yeah, maybe the first or second time you do it, but after awhile it gets old. I would have been content with Zant being the main villain period. The stuff with Ganondorf being the mastermind came straight out of left field.

Yeah, it's better to have some games that don't have Ganon in it. It adds variety to the overall plot of the series, and makes it feel like you're experiencing something new. (Mario would also benefit from having a main game with no Bowser at all, similar to the Mario Land games on gameboy). It's good to have a recurring, "main" villain in a series, but if every single game is about confronting him, it feels repetitive, like they're always rehashing the same plot.

Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask are good examples where Ganon never even showed up. Why? Because it wasn't relevant to the plot. If they had just tried to find some way to stick him in there somehow, it would have been detrimental to the quality of the game.

And if you don't see how having a different villain once in a while gives more variety and appeal to a series...
Having a reveal where a bigger villain pull the strings behind the "new villain", obviously takes something away from that new villain. It also feels repetitive and forced if that "bigger villain" is just the same old recurrent bad guy who always shows up anyways.

I think this should say enough about this.

Personally, I always liked Twilight Princess's story as one of my favorites. Zant going overboard is something unique and different, and I'd say honestly fits his character well. Ganondorf already takes the role of the serious and all-powerful (or at least wishes he was) foe. Ghirahim was still better by far, though.

As far as Wolf Link goes, I liked that one too. It was different and was a nice reference to being transformed by the Dark World in LttP. You just never learned anything new in Wolf Form, which sucked. Tear hunts sucked though, but so did hunting down the required Kinstones, TRIFORCE PIECES, etc. Every Zelda game does it. The SS trials were actually cool and interesting though.

There are plenty of good points on both sides, but what really irks me is that final boss comment for the games. In what Zelda game has the final boss ever been as complex as you were saying (teleporting around, cheap-shotting you, waves of energy blasts?) Agahnim and OoT Ganondorf are tennis. Ganon in OoT was slow and could only use a sword slash. Majora's Mask was insane looking, but didn't do anything that incredible. Beating Vaati was just finding out what items to use on him and that's about it. Every phase in the TP final battle was easy as ****, (although I really liked the horseback battle, even though Ganondorf STOPS FOR YOU if you get knocked off.) Ganondorf in WW was better than TP, but not that much.

To be honest, the final battle in Skyward Sword was probably the most challenging final battle of all the 3D Zelda games. Now the LttP Ganon was good.

Zelda's never been played the way a game like Kingdom Hearts plays, and to me that's a good thing. Even if there are waves of energy blasts coming and stuff, KH battles are too repetitive.

Once again, let me quote something...

And there's another part of your first post that I heavily agree with. It's the part about the final battles!!!

Just look at the last boss of ALTTP.



Sure, you can PWN him easily... if you've done it many times before.
But look at all his attacks. He spins his trident, throws it at you, shoots spinning fire balls, spinning fire bats, breaks the floor, extinguishes the torches... you have to keep lighting them while dodging his attacks, avoid falling into the pits... you also have to hit him, like, A LOT (and you don't get tons of free hits like in the modern games), and finally, shoot him with the Silver Arrows.

Plus, he's not just some guy with a sword; he's a giant beast. You're the hero of mankind against the most twisted creature ever. So much more symbolic! I mean, yeah, I know OOT also had the beast form as the final boss, but he was so much slower and easy to dodge. You didn't even need to stun him. (Still very epic though, because the atmosphere was really good, and the entire escape scene leading to the battle really gets your blood going before the fight).

Seriously, Ganondorf's Beast From in TP felt so much more like a Final Boss than what came after.
As for Demise: Seriously, he was the Demon King that seriously injured a FREAKING GODDESS and CREATED A WORLD to fight Link in, and yet in battle his only form of attack is a giant sword?
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
Where are the dark fireballs or teleporting?
Heck even Ghirahim was able to teleport. So why wouldn't Demise be able to?
In fact, Ghirahim felt so much more like a Final Boss than Demise. Even though it would've left something to be desired, if he would've been the final boss. But at least it would've been better than Demise.
Cuz Ghirahim really gave me the impression that he threw everything he had at me.

I never played the PS2 original, (Which gets a lot of praise.) but ouch were both Kingdom Hearts DS games a pain. It was the most repetitive, dull combat system I've ever seen, and re:Coded's methods for healing was all botched up to boot! I can agree with you from experience on that one. ;_;

Heh, and yeah, it would have been nice to learn new moves as the Wolf. I personally liked the form for what it was, though, playing a part in the plot and being plenty useful in-game. Some might think wolf transformations overdone in other forms of media, but it's rare to see in games, and sure beats werehogs by a longshot anyway. =P

Paragon-Yoshi wrote:Did you even read what I've written or just skim over it?

Read it in full length and even lurked the board you linked a tad. =P It was a pretty interesting discussion, but I really should throw in my perspective if any of my own opinions about it are going to make sense.

I kinda skipped Wind Waker at the time, (Never finished it because of the impossibly irritating Triforce shard quest!) and mostly played other Zelda titles that didn't involve Ganondorf, so I didn't feel like it was getting old when he showed up in Twilight Princess. (Now, if they found a way to plug him into Skyward Sword, then I'd think that was getting old, and even the devs felt the same way. They wanted to take that game in some new directions for everyone's sakes!) Wind Waker didn't even try to hide the fact that Ganon was revived again; it's not like they regurgitated the same plot twist twice.

Yes, it's kinda sad that Zant got tossed aside in the process, (Because really, he's probably the only other viable male villain in the series that didn't make me think of an effeminate transvestite. *coughGhirahimcough*) but he had his moment in the limelight, and blew his convincing fascade royally in the end, shrieking like a dying animal falling out of the sky and all that. Madness and genius sometimes go hand in hand with villains, and apparently Zant was loaded with both. The bad guy we saw throughout the first half of the game was nothing more than a guise; a mask; his true nature locked away until you least expect it. That insanity was highly exaggerated to comical effect, true, but it worked as a plot twist in itself.

.Luke wrote:I never played the PS2 original, (Which gets a lot of praise.) but ouch were both Kingdom Hearts DS games a pain. It was the most repetitive, dull combat system I've ever seen, and re:Coded's methods for healing was all botched up to boot! I can agree with you from experience on that one. ;_;

You should play the original. Since it is THE ONLY GREAT KH-GAME!
The rest sucks because they have broken the plot beyond repair.

I kinda skipped Wind Waker at the time, (Never finished it because of the impossibly irritating Triforce shard quest!) and mostly played other Zelda titles that didn't involve Ganondorf, so I didn't feel like it was getting old when he showed up in Twilight Princess. (Now, if they found a way to plug him into Skyward Sword, then I'd think that was getting old, and even the devs felt the same way. They wanted to take that game in some new directions for everyone's sakes!) Wind Waker didn't even try to hide the fact that Ganon was revived again; it's not like they regurgitated the same plot twist twice.

(Yes, that Triforce Shard quest was annoying. It wouldn't have been so bad through, if it weren't for TINGLE'S ****, OVERKILL-PRICE!)
Still, I can only point at the link again. I think we've ascertained well why Ganondorf's presence makes no sense there.
Plot Twist or not. Plotholes are plotholes!

Yes, it's kinda sad that Zant got tossed aside in the process, (Because really, he's probably the only other viable male villain in the series that didn't make me think of an effeminate transvestite. *coughGhirahimcough*) but he had his moment in the limelight, and blew his convincing fascade royally in the end, shrieking like a dying animal falling out of the sky and all that. Madness and genius sometimes go hand in hand with villains, and apparently Zant was loaded with both. The bad guy we saw throughout the first half of the game was nothing more than a guise; a mask; his true nature locked away until you least expect it. That insanity was highly exaggerated to comical effect, true, but it worked as a plot twist in itself.

Sorry. I don't think this makes any sense. You tell me this over and over again. I still won't buy it.
It makes no sense for him to act that much different in the end.
And I didn't see any madness in the Zant that was introduced in the Palace of Twilight, but immaturity like a spoiled little brat.
And like I said, he obviously acted out of revenge for his tribe before. Which has been suddenly changed to petty jealousy.
Seriously, how can you defend that. :/

(Also, what's wrong with Ghirahim? He was a crazy, chaotic villain. PERFECT!)

I did already mention that the LttP battle was good, there was no reason to post a video on it, but you were talking as if all kinds of Zelda games had all these epic complex battles up until TP and SS. Having all kinds of awesome attacks isn't all there is to a final battle though, which is proven in OoT which, despite being quite simple, is one of the greatest ending battles ever put in a video game.

The thing about Skyward Sword's final battle is that they wanted it to be a sword fight, because of the way the game's played. I'll say it should have gotten a third phase, or they should have at least given all bosses more attacks and options in Hero Mode. I was actually kind of hoping for this when I learned of Hero Mode (mainly because I'd recently finished playing Kirby Wii's EX mode before getting SS.)

To be honest, I wouldn't mind continued use of the Wii Motion Plus for a new Zelda game, but they're naturally going to want to use the Wii U's touch controller. That's completely fine though; I'd like to see what another new controller option has to offer.

BossFight wrote:I did already mention that the LttP battle was good, there was no reason to post a video on it, but you were talking as if all kinds of Zelda games had all these epic complex battles up until TP and SS.

I didn't say that at all. :/
I was actually referring to bosses from pre-N64 gens.
Cuz those were harder than today's bosses.

Having all kinds of awesome attacks isn't all there is to a final battle though, which is proven in OoT which, despite being quite simple, is one of the greatest ending battles ever put in a video game.

Sorry, but no.
The final battle of OoT was only great, due the great atmosphere. The ruins, along with the thunder and the epic music, while fighting a giant beast.
But it would'Ve been much better, if Ganon had more attacks than just a pair of swords.
Heck, what happened to the energy balls that he used previously?
I mean, he DESTROYED Hyrule Town in a blink of an eye and REVIVED a dead dragon. Heck, he has the TRIFORCE OF POWER.
So why doesn't he use any attacks to implicate just how powerful he is?

The battle can be easy, if they want it to be.
But with awesome-looking attacks, that really make you think "Holy Cow, this boss is the real deal!", you get yourself a worthy final boss.
And that would've made the battle so much better.

The thing about Skyward Sword's final battle is that they wanted it to be a sword fight, because of the way the game's played. I'll say it should have gotten a third phase, or they should have at least given all bosses more attacks and options in Hero Mode. I was actually kind of hoping for this when I learned of Hero Mode (mainly because I'd recently finished playing Kirby Wii's EX mode before getting SS.)

And I am perfectly fine with the sword battle concept.
The problem is that he lacks other attacks that make him look like the powerful Demon King that he is supposed to be.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind continued use of the Wii Motion Plus for a new Zelda game, but they're naturally going to want to use the Wii U's touch controller. That's completely fine though; I'd like to see what another new controller option has to offer.

What has this to do with anything?

Paragon-Yoshi wrote:What has this to do with anything?

Oh, well I was just talking about Skyward Sword's controls and side-tracked a bit. I agree with your rant on the bosses though, it's Zelda's negative point for sure. Most bosses never have any more than two attacks to use, like that Levias and that Parasite. I loved how they put an out-of-dungeon boss there, but the eyeballs should have shot lasers or something while you're in the sky, and the Parasite should have done more than barfing up that ball. The 2D Zelda games are much better about it, but so are most 2D games in general.

Paragon-Yoshi wrote:
You should play the original. Since it is THE ONLY GREAT KH-GAME!
The rest sucks because they have broken the plot beyond repair.

Haha, everyone I've talked to about that game tell me the same thing, but the bigger complaints came from gimped game-play mechanics, like the sequel's. RE:Coded made absolutely no sense, and the nobody of Sora/maybe Sora in the other title preceeding it didn't help either, so I have to agree with the plot issues there. The vacant, lifeless cities in each only made it feel worse.

Paragon-Yoshi wrote:
(Yes, that Triforce Shard quest was annoying. It wouldn't have been so bad through, if it weren't for TINGLE'S ****, OVERKILL-PRICE!)
Still, I can only point at the link again. I think we've ascertained well why Ganondorf's presence makes no sense there.
Plot Twist or not. Plotholes are plotholes!

Totally agree, Tingle's prices were the worst part! I didn't go out of my way for side quests, and never had many rupees on hand, which only made the fees seem even more astronomical. xD

Anyway, how is Ganondorf's presence a plot hole, exactly? I'm curious about that one. He did vow to return, after all, it was only a matter of time!

Paragon-Yoshi wrote:Sorry. I don't think this makes any sense. You tell me this over and over again. I still won't buy it.
It makes no sense for him to act that much different in the end.
And I didn't see any madness in the Zant that was introduced in the Palace of Twilight, but immaturity like a spoiled little brat.
And like I said, he obviously acted out of revenge for his tribe before. Which has been suddenly changed to petty jealousy.
Seriously, how can you defend that. :/

I might be grasping at straws here, but he did sound like a bird-like cartoon character while banging his head against the ground. I normally expect a sane villain to simply be sitting there, either brooding or in deep meditation, not making chicken noises.

Paragon-Yoshi wrote:(Also, what's wrong with Ghirahim? He was a crazy, chaotic villain. PERFECT!)

I never played Skyward Sword or watched video walkthroughs of it, (And still don't plan on doing either.) so I don't really know what the character is like enough to light-heartedly bash anything but his outward appearance, really; I have nothing against him. xD

Paragon-Yoshi wrote:I was actually referring to bosses from pre-N64 gens.
Cuz those were harder than today's bosses.

Meh, Ganon wasn't that big of a deal to me back in the 90's. Tough as nails, but not impossible. On my third playthrough at age seven, I creamed him royally while wearing only the green male and the untempered Master Sword. That's not to say it's shamefully as easy as newer bosses, but yes, the SNES Ganon does put up more of a fight when it comes to attack variety and strategies. I dunno what happened with OoT's final boss's lacking moveset, other than maybe the difficult hurdle to 3D, an over-complicated SDK, the limits of the N64, and a set release date to stick to.

BossFight wrote:To be honest, I wouldn't mind continued use of the Wii Motion Plus for a new Zelda game, but they're naturally going to want to use the Wii U's touch controller.

I'm pretty sure interviews have mentioned sticking with the Wii Motion Plus in a later installment, (Or simply providing it as an option?) so why would they throw out the concept so quickly when backwards compatibility with Wii games and peripherals are right there on the WiiU? It's too bad Gamecube compatibility isn't making it in, but as long as GC titles like Twilight Princess are released digitally on their eShop, I wouldn't mind that setup at all, personally.

.Luke wrote:Anyway, how is Ganondorf's presence a plot hole, exactly? I'm curious about that one. He did vow to return, after all, it was only a matter of time!

Once again, I have to quote stuff, since you apparently didn't read it.

It's really, really simple. Link saves Hyrule and Ganon gets imprisoned, then he goes back to the original point in time before he time travelled.

The future where he saved Hyrule still exists (the one where everybody parties at the Ranch at the end of OOT), but with Link completely gone from it. Centuries later, Wind Waker takes place. In the intro, it says that the original Link never showed up again, right? That's because he didn't exist anymore in that reality. When Zelda played the Ocarina at the end of OOT, it completely deleted him from that world. Time continued to flow for everybody else, but without Link in it.

Link was sent back to the past, and changed the events so that OOT's plot never happens. In this new reality, he didn't collect the spiritual stones, he just took the Ocarina from Zelda (MM shows this in a cutscene) and went to Termina 3 months later. Without the spiritual stones, Ganon couldn't open the door of time and never rose to power. Also, the "7 years later" part of OOT never happens (that's not assumption, it's fact). Wind Waker also never happens in this reality, because the gods never flooded Hyrule.

Remember though, the other future is still happening (the one where Link won, and disappeared), and THAT's where Wind Waker takes place.

The 2 realities exist in parallel, and they both have different Zelda games taking place in them.

But Twilight Princess breaks it.

Apparently, it is supposed to play in the time-line where young Link existed.
And like you said, in this timeline, Ganondorf never rose to power...
But in Twilight Princess, he still did somehow.
Since it was due the Triforce of Power that he survived the execution.
Which is mainly the reason why his existence in TP makes no sense.
At least if you ask me. Or can someone explain this to me?

But youre right, it makes no sense that Ganon had the Triforce in TP. In that timeline, he was never able to trick OOT link into opening the door of time for him, so why does he have the Triforce? Divine intervention maybe? Link and Zelda received theirs in the same way. Or maybe it's just a plot hole. He got the Triforce somehow, the game just doesn't tell you how.

After some research, there is another fan theory saying that, since both timelines are "parallel", he would have received it at the same time as his "other self" took it in the other timeline, but without knowing it. This could make sense, but again, it's just assumption. Maybe it's just a plot hole, or bad storytelling (and if this is the case, then Paragon's criticism of TP's plot is valid.) It might just be something they didn't think about.

Hmm, I don't know what to think about this theory. Could make sense... :/

You're right this is may be something they didn't think about.
But if that is the case, then I gotta say that Nintendo was really sloppy here.

But maybe they didn't think about this, because they didn't intend to include Ganondorf originally?
That it was just a last-second decision to include him after all and that they quickly came up with a plot about him, without thinking whether or not it actually fits the storyline?
I dunno if that is the case. But that is the suspicion I have.

And not to forget:

At the end of OoT, Hyrule was at peace in both timelines.
If Ganondorf were still free in the Young Link timeline AND have the Triforce of Power, wouldn't Hyrule be in the state of chaos as it was throughout of the Adult Link part of the game?

Rauru (the Light Sage) told us that the instant Ganondorf obtained the Triforce, he destroyed Hyrule Town and threw the land into chaos.
And it remained that way for the 7 years Link spent sleeping in the Sacred Realm.
Therefore Ganondorf COULDN'T have had the Triforce of Power at the end of OoT in the Young Link timeline.
Since, like I said, Hyrule was at peace.

And even if Ganondorf would've had it, why wouldn't Young Link be the one to fight him and instead just leave Hyrule and let Ganondorf do his thing?
That doesn't make any sense.

So we can rightly assume that Ganondorf never got the Triforce in the timeline of Young Link.

Anymore questions?

I might be grasping at straws here, but he did sound like a bird-like cartoon character while banging his head against the ground. I normally expect a sane villain to simply be sitting there, either brooding or in deep meditation, not making chicken noises.

Once again, you refer to cutscene in the Palace of Twilight, where his personality was already shifted. So of course the "ret-conned" his personality accordingly.
Why do you keep ignoring my point?

Meh, Ganon wasn't that big of a deal to me back in the 90's. Tough as nails, but not impossible.

Seriously, cut your strawmans. I never said they should be impossible to beat.

That's not to say it's shamefully as easy as newer bosses, but yes, the SNES Ganon does put up more of a fight when it comes to attack variety and strategies.

Exactly my point.

I dunno what happened with OoT's final boss's lacking moveset, other than maybe the difficult hurdle to 3D, an over-complicated SDK, the limits of the N64, and a set release date to stick to.

Nintendo never sticks to a set release date. If they cannot finish their work in time, they DELAY it!
Which is the exact right decision.
And I hate on how other video game developers don't do that and instead decide to release incomplete games.

I feel the same about developers cutting corners just to meet a deadline. Halo 2, for one, could have probably brought that trilogy to greater heights if it wasn't rushed to meet the hunger of Bunjie's undying fans; it suffered so terribly from plot-holes that it's not even funny anymore.

Strawmans? I wasn't intentionally creating points just for you to shoot them down; that would be trolling. I only meant that the boss isn't really "tough" at all, (Difficulty is an abstract thing in games, sometimes.) it's just smarter than the average bear, and if you have the wits and reflexes for it, you can win no problem.

Anyway, ugh, the fact that I don't take the fiction in video games as seriously as I used to is really starting to show. ;_; But now that you've thrown all those quotes at me, this discussion is really starting to become serious business. Now I'm typing this up locally instead of on the message board software itself and have my top-favorite Zelda track popped into Amarok's repeat function, you's about to get the whole shebang out of me! =P

I seriously think the fans are trying too hard to connect all the games together, and the best anyone can ever come close to is, at best, an inconsistent mess compared to whatever vision the game producers themselves have. I've even seen one Youtube'r somehow fit the NES games into the picture with the N64 titles, even though it's painfully obvious that the Ocarina of Time was a complete reboot of A Link to the Past, (Just like everything else on that system. Take one look at StarFox 64, it's the same freakin' game as the SNES original, just better, and now they've remade it again on the 3DS.) yuck! I remember when that theory was first spreading around, and while it was pretty cool at the time, the author spawned it way before Twilight Princess ever hit retail, and even he wasn't sure if the theory would still hold up after everyone got their hands on that game. It has become even more dated now that we have Skyward Sword in the picture too, so it's about time some top-notch fanfic writer out there put their thinking cap back on and revised the theory in whole, or scrapped it altogether.

This is what I hate about fan theories, they are near-sighted shots in the dark, and it's not like they have the Zelda bible in the palms of their sweaty hands; their guess is about as good as anyone else's. It's neat to see them explored in fan fiction, but when fans start trying to apply them to official works, it generally downplays the quality of a well-told story more than do the original property justice. At least some authors release an encyclopedic compilation of their fiction's lore to keeps fans from making such laughable, off-base guesses about the worlds within the fiction itself, or even worse, spreading their misinformed theories to other fans.

It can't be stressed enough that the Wind Waker is a spin-off series; nothing more, nothing less. If you would exclude it from the apparently popular fan-made consensus of the Zelda time-line for even a moment, (As in completely forget Wind Waker and the whole split time-line theory ever happened.) the story in Twlight Princess makes perfect sense. If you want to include Twilight Princess in the currently dated and messy fan-made timeline, then yes, it is a royal trainwreck of a story that shouldn't make any sense at all.

But what if you ignore fan-made theory? Disown the baseless opinion of the masses? Do that, and Twilight Princess will work out just fine, think about this one for a second. I seriously believe you need a more universal perspective of both time travel and what little mythology is actually hinted at in the games.

My General Synopsis of Twilight Princess's Plot i.e Oh Goddess Another Fan Theory wrote:

Near the end of Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf was sent to the Sacred Realm when Zelda banished him from Hyrule, with the help of the seven sages. That place is beyond and outside of time, quite possibly. Ganondorf was not removed from the past because of this, but his future self still remains trapped in the Sacred Realm. Although the King of Shadows was prevented from destroying Hyrule in the past, one iteration of Ganondorf or another is locked away in either case.

Many centuries later, when the Zelda and Link we knew in OoT are long dead, (Pay close attention to Faron's dialogue when he gifts this new "Link" with the "Ancient Hero"'s original armor; it's clearly not the same Link at all. The very idea of this adolescent being the very same Link who prevented the catastrophe of Ganon's invasion into the Sacred Realm is botched and near-sighted.) let's enter the new Zelda (A distant descendant named after her, possibly Zelda the IV or XII, maybe?) and the new Hyrule. The geology and town locations have changed, the Temple of Time is in ancient ruin, the last of the Gurridos were tortured then banished to another realm, (Seriously, how are the Twili not connected to the Gurrido Thieves? No one else in Hyrule could be more deserving of that treatment, or has red hair.) and everybody's busy living their happy, laid-back lives.

Travel back to the Arbiter's Grounds, we see the new seven sages. These guys apparently never possessed even an iota of foreknowledge of Ganon's past, because they get this crazy idea in their heads that they can remove one more air-hog from the infinite white abyss, and execute him. They were dead wrong, he still had the Triforce of Power, laughed at their petty attempt, broke free, and charged right into one of them. Before he can kill anymore of the sages, they make things worse by sending him into the Twilight Realm, where the descendants of his race are alive, though changed. These morons are looking more incompetent by the second. (Thus creating a supposed "plot-hole", because the events in Wind Waker have not happened yet, obviously; assuming any blokes are still connecting these two games together at this point.)

In the Twilight realm, Ganon uses his powers to convince some royal crybaby, Zant, that he can have all the power and control he wants, just so long his new "god" is done a favor in return. This meant reviving Ganondorf and bringing him back into the physical realm. So what does Zant do? More than just take over the throne in his own realm, now he's got more going on than just "revenge" for his tribe's eternal banishment with the invasion of Hyrule. Ganon wants Hyrule, and he wants the Twilight Realm; both parties are getting what they desire, and everyone else is doomed to the darkness.

But who can save Hyrule and the Twilight Realm from this suffocating veil of shadow? Would you look at that, some random rancher boy out in the sticks who happens to be a descendant of the true hero! He's got the mark and everything; he's automatically protected from the influence of twilight for everyone's sake! Sucks having to lift your leg when you pee, but they never said saving your homeland would be easy either; at least you have a rather demanding, toothy Imp with a cute butt telling you what to do.

*intense plot development revealing everything already mentioned; you can't build up a believable story if you spoil it all in the intro*

Moving onto the final stage of the battle with Ganondorf, (Dunno what good those pesky Light Arrows Zelda the MMVI (Such a convoluted thing the Roman numbering system is!) did if all they accomplished was to knock Ganondorf off his high-horse.) Link finally drives the Master Sword through the weak point that the Sages created in Ganondorf's abdomen, and puts the green outcast out of his misery. Even then the giant is still standing and cursing at the hero that this war is far from over, until the Goddesses remembered, "Oh wait, that's right! We totally forgot to strip Ganon of that Triforce thing when he came into the Sacred Realm! Let's go ahead and put it back where it belongs." and then the mark fades off of his skin. At this point, he is close to dead, and breathes his last once Zant pulls a flash-back style voodoo trick from the dead on Ganondorf's body.

And there you have it, Frogface finally croaked after trying so hard to retake Hyrule all over again. Evil is at last averted for another generation to enjoy the peace and wonder of the beautiful world their ancestors left for them.

Er, the last few paragraphs got a little snarky and ranty-like, but I think I made my point. I didn't really meditate on it long and hard either. This was the pure, undiluted perception I gathered from playing through the whole story several times. It's there for you to tear apart however you like, I don't care, as I don't even take my own "theory" seriously anymore, given the light-hearted way some of it was written. At least with this you'll know why I'm defending the game so much, and then maybe you can finally prove me wrong.

It's clear to me that all of the games are founding themselves on a very rich archive of fictional mythology, but I just don't see how nearly all of the games individually can directly relate to each other; very few are obvious sequels, and are never entertained with a third expansion. (Unless you want to claim the Oracle games are prequels to Link's Awakening; a more realistic place to start serious dot-connecting.) It's no better than attempting to piece together a time-line for every Mario game in existence, you're just not going to get anywhere; forget what the warm fuzzies inside are telling you, it's not worth what little time you have on this earth when you could be busy using that time to write your own original fiction.

EDIT : I'm not expecting to immediately convince you of anything, but I did feel it was important to point out there are details about the canon we fans just don't know about, and Twilight Princess specifically draws from what OoT left behind, (Completely disregarding every other title's relevence, I assume.) whether you want to tack on that time-split idea in there or not. (Time travel is a difficult subject as it is.) I just don't trust fan theories anymore, I'd rather wait until I have the full story before forming a solid opinion on anything. (Not ever going to happen with the Zelda games, I know, but it's still better than writing up extensive speculation like some people in the fanfic community do.)