A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

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A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by Maetch on Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:20 pm

One thing I've noticed abou both Shantae games is that no matter the time, no matter the attack, Shantae only ever loses a half-heart with every hit. Between Heart Holders and a supply of potions (plus the Heal Dance in the first game), it's almost impossible to die in battle since Shantae can tank so much pain and heal it like its nothing.

I'd personally prefer it if they made it so that Shantae takes some more damage per hit. Not overly-damaging, but proportionated enough with the type of hit Shantae takes (like how getting flattened by something heavy would hurt much more than just bumping an enemy from the side). After all, there's no challenge if you've got no reason to worry about getting killed.

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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by Paragon-Yoshi on Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:39 pm

Good Point.

I'd also like different enemies to deal different amounts of damage.
Heck, I would like to see an enemy like Iron Knuckle's from Zelda: Ocarina of Time.
Those things deal 3 HEARTS OF DAMAGE WITH A SINGLE HIT!!!
What about enemies like that in a Shantae game? That sure would make the game better.

Speaking of ENEMIES:
As far as I've seen they all were mere meatsacks, only there to get beaten up without having to worry about anything.
I mean sure, such enemies should exist.
But at the same time, I think there also should be stronger and SMARTER enemies.

Heck, give stronger enemies the ability to BLOCK Shantae's attacks or DODGE them.
That'd be a start. Since you can't just walk up to them and attack.
You will have to be careful then and find a way around their defenses.

Also, I'd also like to see SMART enemies.
I mean, blocking and dodging would be a start of it already.
But what I mean is, for example, make enemies react depending on the situation.
Like "is Shantae using an item and which one?", "Is she just coming straight at me?", etc. etc.

How about make them SURROUNDING Shantae and attacking from two fronts?
Or how about PUNISHING Shantae, if she approaches them the wrong way?
Like when she just recklessly walks towards them and attacks, they will COUNTER!
Just an example.

I already posted concepts like these in the "Boss Battle" topic, if you wanna see.


Nintendo already did the same thing in the Zelda-games, by giving each enemy different behavior-patterns, different stats and also different defenses.
Many enemies have none and can be just slashed like that, while other enemies (such as the Lizalfos from SS) BLOCK or AVOID any reckless attacks that you throw at them and maybe even COUNTERATTACK.

Why not trying the same thing in Shantae as well? That'd be great! Extra Smile



And while I am at it, Bring back the Martial Arts Special Attacks!
Seriously, they are awesome.
Unfortunately they were treated as a mere extra. But IMO they should be more than that.
Give each Special Attack different advantages.
The "Somersault Kick" from the original game surely was the best in terms of uses.
Since with this, you can attack while going up. And you don't have to jump first and then attack, while leaving yourself open when you line up for the attack.

And how about giving the "Drill Kick" special the ability to BREAK DEFENSES!
Create NEW special attacks, each with their own uses.
And make it so that sometimes they are better suited for offense than the regular Hair Whip!
Depending on the situation, where you are and which enemies you face.
That'd be a great way to implement the Martial Art techs.
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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by Maetch on Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:09 pm

Paragon-Yoshi wrote:Good Point.

I'd also like different enemies to deal different amounts of damage.
Heck, I would like to see an enemy like Iron Knuckle's from Zelda: Ocarina of Time.
Those things deal 3 HEARTS OF DAMAGE WITH A SINGLE HIT!!!
What about enemies like that in a Shantae game? That sure would make the game better.

Speaking of ENEMIES:
As far as I've seen they all were mere meatsacks, only there to get beaten up without having to worry about anything.
I mean sure, such enemies should exist.
But at the same time, I think there also should be stronger and SMARTER enemies.

Heck, give stronger enemies the ability to BLOCK Shantae's attacks or DODGE them.
That'd be a start. Since you can't just walk up to them and attack.
You will have to be careful then and find a way around their defenses.

Also, I'd also like to see SMART enemies.
I mean, blocking and dodging would be a start of it already.
But what I mean is, for example, make enemies react depending on the situation.
Like "is Shantae using an item and which one?", "Is she just coming straight at me?", etc. etc.

How about make them SURROUNDING Shantae and attacking from two fronts?
Or how about PUNISHING Shantae, if she approaches them the wrong way?
Like when she just recklessly walks towards them and attacks, they will COUNTER!
Just an example.

I already posted concepts like these in the "Boss Battle" topic, if you wanna see.


Nintendo already did the same thing in the Zelda-games, by giving each enemy different behavior-patterns, different stats and also different defenses.
Many enemies have none and can be just slashed like that, while other enemies (such as the Lizalfos from SS) BLOCK or AVOID any reckless attacks that you throw at them and maybe even COUNTERATTACK.

Why not trying the same thing in Shantae as well? That'd be great! Extra Smile
Because the 2D format is not designed for overly-complex enemy AI. Keeping it simple-but-effective works better, and the current enemy AI of the Shantae games works well enough for the tone of the franchise. Still, a bit of a damage boost in their attacks should add enough to make them a legit threat to Shantae. This especially applies to bosses, who can look imposing but are useless if they can barely damage the main character.

Paragon-Yoshi wrote:And while I am at it, Bring back the Martial Arts Special Attacks!
Seriously, they are awesome.
Unfortunately they were treated as a mere extra. But IMO they should be more than that.
Give each Special Attack different advantages.
The "Somersault Kick" from the original game surely was the best in terms of uses.
Since with this, you can attack while going up. And you don't have to jump first and then attack, while leaving yourself open when you line up for the attack.

And how about giving the "Drill Kick" special the ability to BREAK DEFENSES!
Create NEW special attacks, each with their own uses.
And make it so that sometimes they are better suited for offense than the regular Hair Whip!
Depending on the situation, where you are and which enemies you face.
That'd be a great way to implement the Martial Art techs.
Eh, the added attacks are fun, but they should NEVER overshadow the hair-whip and dancing as Shantae's main abilities. They are literally just options, just like the Magic Items, and should only support her abilities instead of completely replacing them.

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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by Paragon-Yoshi on Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:17 pm

Maetch wrote:Because the 2D format is not designed for overly-complex enemy AI. Keeping it simple-but-effective works better, and the current enemy AI of the Shantae games works well enough. Still, a bit of a damage boost in their attacks should add enough to make them a legit threat to Shantae. This especially applies to bosses, who can look imposing but are useless if they can barely damage the main character.
Still, I think giving the stronger enemies the ability to properly defend against certain moves shouldn't be a hard task, even for the 2D-Format.
I am not saying every enemy should have it.

Just certain stronger enemies, where certain attacks or items don't work so well against them.

Eh, the added attacks are fun, but they should NEVER overshadow the hair-whip and dancing as Shantae's main abilities. They are literally just options, just like the Magic Items, and should only support her abilities instead of completely replacing them.
I am not saying make them REPLACE the Hair-Whip, but simply make them more effective for certain situations.
Of course the Hair Whip would still remain an option at all times. It's just not always the most ideal option.

I'd like to put them on the same level as the Hidden Skills from Zelda: Twilight Princess.
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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by Maetch on Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:29 pm

Paragon-Yoshi wrote:
Maetch wrote:Because the 2D format is not designed for overly-complex enemy AI. Keeping it simple-but-effective works better, and the current enemy AI of the Shantae games works well enough. Still, a bit of a damage boost in their attacks should add enough to make them a legit threat to Shantae. This especially applies to bosses, who can look imposing but are useless if they can barely damage the main character.
Still, I think giving the stronger enemies the ability to properly defend against certain moves shouldn't be a hard task, even for the 2D-Format.
I am not saying every enemy should have it.

Just certain stronger enemies, where certain attacks or items don't work so well against them.
Enemies can block and do the occasional counterattack, but things like flanking from both sides doesn't quite work when you can only go left or right.

Eh, the added attacks are fun, but they should NEVER overshadow the hair-whip and dancing as Shantae's main abilities. They are literally just options, just like the Magic Items, and should only support her abilities instead of completely replacing them.
I am not saying make them REPLACE the Hair-Whip, but simply make them more effective for certain situations.
Of course the Hair Whip would still remain an option at all times. It's just not always the most ideal option.

I'd like to put them on the same level as the Hidden Skills from Zelda: Twilight Princess.
The hair-whip is supposed to be Shantae's first option for combat, much like how the sword is Link's first option. It may not always be the most effective, but it will usually be the first thing the player uses in any circumstance. Once the player realizes that it may not work as well as they think, they'll then consider their other combat options and experiment with them until they find what works best. This is what good video-game combat is about: being able to fight an enemy based on how the player decides to do it, not how the game dictates you to based on your abilities (something that Zelda games are notorious for).

But this is besides the point. My point was that the in-game damage-scaling needed tweaking so that Shantae couldn't simply tank every enemy she comes across.

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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by Paragon-Yoshi on Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:44 pm

Maetch wrote:Enemies can block and do the occasional counterattack, but things like flanking from both sides doesn't quite work when you can only go left or right.
Flanking was just a quick thought. Maybe not the best I admit.
But it seems we agree on block, dodge and counter. Wink

The hair-whip is supposed to be Shantae's first option for combat, much like how the sword is Link's first option. It may not always be the most effective, but it will usually be the first thing the player uses in any circumstance. Once the player realizes that it may not work as well as they think, they'll then consider their other combat options and experiment with them until they find what works best. This is what good video-game combat is about: being able to fight an enemy based on how the player decides to do it, not how the game dictates you to based on your abilities (something that Zelda games are notorious for).
Eh, I know that. o.O
And I'd like the Specials to be used that way. Why bringing it up?

But this is besides the point. My point was that the in-game damage-scaling needed tweaking so that Shantae couldn't simply tank every enemy she comes across.
The topic is named "A way to make Shantae a little more challenging".
So I don't think it's off-topic at all to talk about how certain enemies could work.
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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by BossFight on Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:13 pm

I like the idea, but **** think about how much harder Risky would be if she was dishing out two hearts of damage? She's beast enough as it is! I wouldn't complain, though.

Also, from what I understand they completely maxed out both the GBC cartridge and the space for DSiWare. Maybe this kind of thing was something they had to decide to do without to have enough space for their most important things. Hopefully 3DS download store has a good deal more space, and Wii U store **** well better!
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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by Nai255 on Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:00 am

So they DID max out all available space for Risky's Revenge?
I was wondering about that for a long time due to the game's length.
Not that games have to be massive timesinks to be enjoyable, take Super Metroid for instance : )

But yeah, I'd be all for certain enemies doing extra damage.
Nothing too extreme, at least to the point where Life-Ups feel more worthwhile.
Since you don't have to use most items you get anyway, the game does a good job in the respect of letting you determine just how rough you want it to be. Though a possible expert mode / second quest would also be welcome

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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by Paragon-Yoshi on Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:09 am

BossFight wrote:I like the idea, but **** think about how much harder Risky would be if she was dishing out two hearts of damage? She's beast enough as it is! I wouldn't complain, though.
Speaking of Risky. Why not giving her some basic sword-slashes?
As much as I saw, she didn't have them. She just had that Jump-Strike, the Sword Throw and that popgun.
Of course, I'd also give her the ability to block.
Seriously, if she really is that much of a expert at wielding blades, I think it only makes sense that she knows how to block with them.

And while I am at it, why not throw in some physical attacks like kicks, that are less powerful but come out a lot faster than her slashes?
Just some quick thoughts.

Also, from what I understand they completely maxed out both the GBC cartridge and the space for DSiWare. Maybe this kind of thing was something they had to decide to do without to have enough space for their most important things. Hopefully 3DS download store has a good deal more space, and Wii U store **** well better!
Ugh, one reason to try and get her back to the retail-sector. Cuz then WayForward wouldn't have to deal with such ridiculous restrictions.

But yeah, I'd be all for certain enemies doing extra damage.
Nothing too extreme, at least to the point where Life-Ups feel more worthwhile.
Since you don't have to use most items you get anyway, the game does a good job in the respect of letting you determine just how rough you want it to be. Though a possible expert mode / second quest would also be welcome
Hmm, a second quest is not really necessary. But okay.
I wonder why nobody comments on what I said though. o.O
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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by BossFight on Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:22 am

Risky's got a few more than that. She's got the M. Bison slide kick, that flying around thing, and her bum rush flurry. No, she doesn't have any basic sword slashes or anything like that, but for a GBC game they did very good. I'm sure a rematch in a newer game would be even better.

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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by Nai255 on Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:17 pm

I wonder why nobody comments on what I said though. o.O

Sorry, didn't mean to make it sound like I was ignoring ya ^ ^;
But my opinion on complex AI for standard enemies was pretty much the same as Maetch's: simple but effective.
Variety is the spice of life, though best used sparingly outside of boss battles to keep the flow of the adventure smooth.
Unless perhaps there was the option to do a hair parry, eheh.

Regarding the martial arts, I definitely enjoyed them in the original game and wouldn't mind seeing them make a comeback.
Perhaps as situational moves to prevent them from being a complete replacement for good 'ol hair lashings, or as part of a combo tied into standard hair attacks.

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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by Paragon-Yoshi on Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:26 pm

Once again, I wouldn't give a complex AI to every enemy.
Just for some tough ones. And there shouldn't be too much varieties of them.

I already admitted that flanking was a stupid idea. At least for the 2D-engine.
But making certain enemies block, dodge and/or counterattack shouldn't be too hard.
In fact, it should be rather simple.


I like your idea of martial arts though. Wink
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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by Maetch on Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:21 pm

Paragon-Yoshi wrote:
BossFight wrote:I like the idea, but **** think about how much harder Risky would be if she was dishing out two hearts of damage? She's beast enough as it is! I wouldn't complain, though.
Speaking of Risky. Why not giving her some basic sword-slashes?
As much as I saw, she didn't have them. She just had that Jump-Strike, the Sword Throw and that popgun.
Of course, I'd also give her the ability to block.
Seriously, if she really is that much of a expert at wielding blades, I think it only makes sense that she knows how to block with them.
Risky already knows how to block, in a way. When fighting her, you actually can't harm Risky except when she briefly pauses before launches an attack.

As to BossFight's complaint, I wouldn't have Risky do THAT much damage. Since the maximum heart limit in the first game was ten, I think a full heart at most should've been the most damage her attacks could do at once.

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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by Paragon-Yoshi on Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:30 pm

Maetch wrote:Risky already knows how to block, in a way. When fighting her, you actually can't harm Risky except when she briefly pauses before launches an attack.
That's more like temporary invincibility for me. Which is not what I mean with blocking. :/
But I guess it should be obvious what I actually mean. Wink
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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by Maetch on Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:07 pm

Paragon-Yoshi wrote:
Maetch wrote:Risky already knows how to block, in a way. When fighting her, you actually can't harm Risky except when she briefly pauses before launching an attack.
That's more like temporary invincibility for me. Which is not what I mean with blocking. :/
It only seems that way because Risky has no guard animation when struck while "invincible", but it's still the way she stops your attacks from harming her, which is generally what blocking is. I'm sure a later game would give Risky a blocking animation in place of her just standing there unresponsive to a failed attack, since it actually makes little sense as to how she seems to inexplicibly not even react when struck (regardless of whether or not it actually damages her).

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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by Paragon-Yoshi on Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:34 pm

It only seems that way because Risky has no guard animation when struck while "invincible", but it's still the way she stops your attacks from harming her, which is generally what blocking is. I'm sure a later game would give Risky a blocking animation in place of her just standing there unresponsive to a failed attack, since it actually makes little sense as to how she seems to inexplicibly not even react when struck (regardless of whether or not it actually damages her).

Ah, so that's how it is.
But yeah, next time they better make her hold up that sword to defend herself.
Or her arms, during the brief periods where she doesn't have it in hand.
(Provided that she is supposed to be able to block, while not having the sword)
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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by BossFight on Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:11 pm

Yeah, Risky is ONLY vulnerable when her hands are on her hips or when she's laughing. As long as she has any weapon in her hand or she's doing any kind of attack, she can't take damage. This is one of the reason's she's so difficult, especially because both her vulnerable animations literally last a second. I know for sure neither last any longer than two. The worst part is she'll always attack RIGHT after being hit, making you have to be very quick about hitting and running (pike and fire balls help with that though.)

There is also the anti-Risky ability you can get at the end of the game, but I'm not gonna say what it is (although most here probably do know.) I never use it, anyway; it takes away from the fight to me.

Though I think if Risky could actively dodge and block attacks in another game, it would make the fight even better.
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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by Paragon-Yoshi on Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:51 pm

Agreed. It'd also make Risky tougher.
I also thought about making Risky go hand-to-hand under certain circumstances. But maybe that's not so good.
Still, I figured she'd have some physical prowess... Wink

Spoiler:
What would make the fight even better, is if Risky would use the lamp to get superpowered. Like I suggested earlier. Wink
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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by BossFight on Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:00 pm

Paragon-Yoshi wrote:
Spoiler:
What would make the fight even better, is if Risky would use the lamp to get superpowered. Like I suggested earlier. Wink

I could really see this happening. After seeing what she could already do, I'd be scared.
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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by Paragon-Yoshi on Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:48 pm

Indeed. ;P
I think it makes sense for Risky to do that, to up the ante.

Just rehashing the Risky-battle from the original would feel a little dull, no?
Anyway...
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Re: A way to make Shantae a little more challenging

Post by Axol The Axolotl on Tue May 28, 2013 4:42 pm

Two words...
Fall Damage.
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